Curse

Epinephrine · Jun 09, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by iRuN

lol......... Havn't farmed once and I do more killing in pvp than being killed.. I HAVE dont GvG and HoH pretty good amount of times, I've even done these with pre-made builds with no additional skills that i've unlocked.. but according to you we "MUST" grind to be any sort of decent character.. pfft.. the things kids moan about these days

Ohh, killing more than killed. Wow, I love people who set their sights high.

If you are content shooting for mediocrity this game is perfect for you. If you want to go in there and kick a team out of the HoH and then hold it for a while you may need a little more than the premades. The fact is that in any contest, if two people are equally matched but one is handed better gear etc, that player will now win more. Gear=edge, and that is against what Anet has stated they are after.

I play competitive games, and I am good at them. I won't settle for the loser bracket just because I don't have time to farm.

iRuN · Jun 09, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

OK this is the last post... For the people who think runes are going to make you some "ub3r l337 never can die" character then you are sadly mistaken. I've played a monk alot in pvp and not one single rune and even if I did it wouldnt be the thing that makes my team win. About the "few hours to get to point A > B", maybe yea you do have to do it to that town ONCE but not everytime and you know thats what Rasp was meaning.

To the above poster.. So you say 2 evenly matched players go 1v1 both would die the same time if neither had runes? Sorry to say but those 2 character may be the same but they wont hit the same exact damage to each other each hit

Ok this is the last post by me, fighting over such a meaningless thing isnt healthy. Also, people always seem to know more than me when argueing, or atleast try to think they do so Im not wasting anymore time on this

BE|Dac · Jun 09, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasp

1 last post. I thought you had to farm to be competitve, Mr. Rank 7? I smell **** coming from a bull.

1) I did farm out my build.
2) I did sit people who where more skilled then others because they did not farm out the right build
3) farming does affect performance

Anyone in BE who played a lot could see this in our first month of playing..

We slowly scaled up at a higher rate in effectiveness based on grinding.

Eventually we could kill teams without warrior counters in a 20-30 seconds and would just rush around the map obliterating teams.

bstripp · Jun 09, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

How much is in the game? Well lets see...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BE|Dac

from guildwars.com

The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.

In the game. If you have 8 skills that work well together and people who know what they are doing you can compete. As to how well, that is an argument that is hashed out in other places, but you can compete and in some cases do well. Verdict: in the game.

Quote:

Guilds can challenge other guilds to battle, compete for control of key parts of the world, and be ranked on a worldwide ladder

Verdict: In the game.

Quote:

Guild Wars heroes come in all types: male and female, large and small, and in any of 36 combinations of the six professions: Warrior, Ranger, Monk, Elementalist, Mesmer, and Necromancer. With more than 150 unique skills per character, which can be combined for any number of effects, the possibilities are mind boggling.

Verdict: In the game.

Quote:

You don't have to spend countless hours on a leveling treadmill to get to the interesting parts of the game, because combat is designed to be strategically interesting and challenging right from the beginning. You don't have to spend hours running around the world to prepare for a quest, because Guild Wars allows you to instantly travel to the beginning of any quest that you've previously unlocked. You'll never spend days playing, only to discover that the choices you made early have left you with a permanently uncompetitive character. The unique skill system in Guild Wars encourages infinite experimentation

No matter how many or few skills you have, you are not left with a bum build. You can change nearly on a whim. This encourages infinate experimentation. Verdict: In the game.

Quote:

new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games

You are picking out works in sentences. Read the whole thing, it eliminates "some of" not all. Missions do help with removal of some tedious aspect of traditional MMO's. Verdict: In the game.

Quote:

both easy to learn and compelling to play long term, and yet does not require players to spend hundreds of hours slogging through the preparation just to get to the fun bits.

The game does not require you to play at all before you can get to the fun bits. Premades exist. Additionally, taking a character to 20 which is about 20-30 hours, gives you enough skills for a few builds. Again, there is nothing preventing you from getting to the fun bits, aka PvP. You can argue that people will have more variety or runes or whatnot, but nothing prevents you from going there. Verdict: In the game.

Quote:

we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game).

? Well it's what they call it. It is competitive and it is an Online Role-Playing Game. Verdict: In the game.

Quote:

Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing or the size of one's guild.

This is the only one that I feel is up for debate. If you don't have 8 people, you can't have any success in GW so size does matter to some degree. It can also be argued that unlocks are important enough to tip the scales on the side of people who have more. So this one is harder to say. Verdict: Uncertain to not in the game.

Quote:

How much of the above is actually in the game?

Most of it.

Saerden · Jun 09, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Q: Please explain how a casual player can compete with the hard-core MMPer who will spend a lot of hours leveling their toon?

Gaile: Our primary design goal with Guild Wars is to create a game that provides meaningful competition. In other words, we are not trying to find arbitrary mechanics to ensure that a casual player has a shot at defeating a hardcore veteran. Instead, we focus on designing the combat mechanics around player skill rather than the number of hours you have invested in the game. A classic strategy game like chess is a good example. If you have been playing and studying for ten years, and I have just read “Chess for Dummies” and decide to challenge you, chances are very low that I will defeat you. But is it possible? Is there a chance that I am just a brilliant player and might find a way to expose a weakness in your play style? You bet. And that's what makes classic strategy games so much fun. It is a level playing field, and the rules don't dictate who wins or loses based on any factor other than the skill of the players.

Is that a fake? If not, who abducted gaile and replaced her with a doppelganger?

Lament Messon · Jun 09, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by BE|Dac

Amazing comparison.

STFU,

thats the stupidest argument in the world.

Read the above statements by me.

No I am not a pin in a haystack, there are people that have played lineage 2 for 6 months straight 12 hours a day that say the grind in guildwars is retarded. Because what? At least when you are done grinding in Lineage 2 you can absolutely spoil peoples time and have fun ganking everyone, in guildwars you can compete in a non existant ladder or the same tombs every night? The key is competition and there is 1/100th of the competition in even beta. That is ridiculous.

Here is a good comparison. Progress quest vrs Guildwars. I think you are looking for progress quest for your gaming needs.

"yet does not require players to spend hundreds of hours slogging through the preparation just to get to the fun bits." quoted form Anet.

"yet does not require players to spend hundreds of hours slogging through the preparation just to get to the fun bits." quoted form Anet.

Oh yah your totally right Grinding is the fun bits? Or is it searching for any spot that drops runes then watching it get nerfed that brings a smile to every player?

Must be nice to post a reply to your own thread as the only acceptable response. Your STFU comment is totally uncalled for. He answered your question in a very good way, just because you don't see it doesn't mean you have the right to flame...or troll whatever.

Anyhow... the comparison with EQ is very valid. I have played EQ for 2 years and the grind there is crazy. To get just about any epic weapon requires DAYS of camping one mob that doesn't give you any xp or decent loot just to wait for a 1/100 chance of it dropping...oh yeah the mob only pops once every 36 minutes. You do the math. That's just for one piece.

Also any mob in GW has a chance of dropping just about any item in the mobs level class. In games like EQ you have to fight a CERTAIN type of monster to have a CHANCE it will drop a specific item. Then even when you get to the place the mob spawns there are already 2 groups fighting over the coveted spot.

That's not to mention the insane amount of time spent leveling and gearing your char...GW has no comparative grind, and it seeks to level the playing field making sure that people wanting to farm items don't use the same prime location due to some drop imbalance.

I feel that GW has lived up to it's promise, and continues to steer the community in the direction it's vision intended.

just my 2 copper Lament.

BE|Dac · Jun 09, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

Q: Please explain how a casual player can compete with the hard-core MMPer who will spend a lot of hours leveling their toon?

Gaile: Our primary design goal with Guild Wars is to create a game that provides meaningful competition. In other words, we are not trying to find arbitrary mechanics to ensure that a casual player has a shot at defeating a hardcore veteran. Instead, we focus on designing the combat mechanics around player skill rather than the number of hours you have invested in the game. A classic strategy game like chess is a good example. If you have been playing and studying for ten years, and I have just read “Chess for Dummies” and decide to challenge you, chances are very low that I will defeat you. But is it possible? Is there a chance that I am just a brilliant player and might find a way to expose a weakness in your play style? You bet. And that's what makes classic strategy games so much fun. It is a level playing field, and the rules don't dictate who wins or loses based on any factor other than the skill of the players.

Is that a fake? If not, who abducted gaile and replaced her with a doppelganger?

Yah they must have got that quote from a long time ago eh.

BE|Dac · Jun 09, 2005, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lament Messon

Must be nice to post a reply to your own thread as the only acceptable response. Your STFU comment is totally uncalled for. He answered your question in a very good way, just because you don't see it doesn't mean you have the right to flame...or troll whatever.

Anyhow... the comparison with EQ is very valid. I have played EQ for 2 years and the grind there is crazy. To get just about any epic weapon requires DAYS of camping one mob that doesn't give you any xp or decent loot just to wait for a 1/100 chance of it dropping...oh yeah the mob only pops once every 36 minutes. You do the math. That's just for one piece.

Also any mob in GW has a chance of dropping just about any item in the mobs level class. In games like EQ you have to fight a CERTAIN type of monster to have a CHANCE it will drop a specific item. Then even when you get to the place the mob spawns there are already 2 groups fighting over the coveted spot.

That's not to mention the insane amount of time spent leveling and gearing your char...GW has no comparative grind, and it seeks to level the playing field making sure that people wanting to farm items don't use the same prime location due to some drop imbalance.

I feel that GW has lived up to it's promise, and continues to steer the community in the direction it's vision intended.

just my 2 copper Lament.

Yeah your right, and I hope you like minimum wage because people in africa starve to death.

honestly ...............

Wow it doesnt have 2 years of grind yippeeee???????

totally on point and sharp contrast man.

Ollj · Jun 09, 2005, 07:40 PM // 19:40

its all in.
plus tons of ppl that think they play diabolo 2 and **** up the game.

-z|o- · Jun 09, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

People who never been in top 20 or held HoH consequently shouldnt be talking about what competative PvP is.

Aug · Jun 09, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by iRuN

OK this is the last post... For the people who think runes are going to make you some "ub3r l337 never can die" character then you are sadly mistaken. I've played a monk alot in pvp and not one single rune and even if I did it wouldnt be the thing that makes my team win. About the "few hours to get to point A > B", maybe yea you do have to do it to that town ONCE but not everytime and you know thats what Rasp was meaning.

1 person in 8 might not matter, but 8 in 8 will.

Quote:

To the above poster.. So you say 2 evenly matched players go 1v1 both would die the same time if neither had runes? Sorry to say but those 2 character my be the same but they wont hit the same exact damage to each other each hit

People

Each individual hit won't be the same, no. But over the course of a battle, the damage output will be very nearly identical (+/- a few percent at most). If they were identical builds. But, because time invested DOES matter, they won't be the same build, because one person will have that elusive Superior rune and being about 5% more damage over time. Multiply that by 8 people, and it's enough to give you a noticeable advantage.

Hooshang · Jun 09, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

to those that think there is grind, what should be done to deal with it?

Sleeky101 · Jun 09, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimu

It will take a lot of effort and time to unlock every skill and rune..but why does anybody need every last one?

In competitive top-level pvp (which I'm assuming OP is talking about), you can't cheat yourself on anything. This means unlocking all runes, all skills, and best mods.

Yes, you can still be competitve if you take minors and the +2en staff head. But, when you truely want to be competitve on a high level, you want to make sure you are losing because it is something you did wrong, not that you are losing because the other team was using superior vigors.

Epinephrine · Jun 09, 2005, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

Is that a fake? If not, who abducted gaile and replaced her with a doppelganger?

http://pc.gamezone.com/news/03_09_04_11_19AM.htm

Read it yourself? I guess for those of us who followed the game for long enough it seemed like they were seriously trying to make a fantasy competitive game like MtG, but blending in action as well. I was at first disappointed by how slow it was, as I play FPS a lot, but enjoyed the stratgizing as I played MtG since 1993 or so; it was just after Arabian Nights came out. Blending fantasy, action and strategy sounds great to me, and the PvE was to be a nice bonus I thought, a world to explore and learn about how to use the skills, while PvP was fair and skill-based.

Saerden · Jun 09, 2005, 07:44 PM // 19:44

If i understand the way dmg works, having or not having a rune may decide the outcome of a battle. Could a "real" pvp player confirm this?

If you do 100 dmg, and the enemy can heall 100 dmg, you do no dmg at all.
If you, due to a rune, now do 105 dmg, and your enemy, because he does not have the healing rune, still only heals for 100dmg...

* edit i just read the article. Lets stop this pointless discussion and try to find Gaile. Whoever abducted her (and the rest of the PR team) needs a sound beating

Granamyr · Jun 09, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Your post is ridiculous.

Why, because he asks a question about GW delivering on its marketing promise?

This is a great thread to inspire people to take a step back and see how well GW is living up to its goals. That those goals should be defined by the PR or Marketing team is another argument entirely. Personally, I wouldn't measure the game by the PR/Marketing standards however I'm sure you could get Strain or the devs to sign-off on a lot of the statements you quoted.

I'd say GW is lacking in a lot of the areas mentioned in the press release however the yardstick I use is how much fun I'm having. The game is still fun for me but it seems more and more, ANet is making changes that irritate most of the community (if the forums are any judge).

Yes, people were clamoring for an easier way to capture skills however they were not asking to be essentially handed their PvE runes. Likewise, they were not asking to have drop rates tampered with. It's like every time they make a beneficial change, the guy with the forked tail and red eyes in the room gets to talk and the devs somehow agree that at least two "screw the community" changes have to be made for every one beneficial one.

BE|Dac, is the game still fun for you? If so, GW is probably meeting its intended goals. If not, you're probably not alone but still part of small (albeit ever-growing) minority. Regardless, this game should not be judged by the triumphs or failures of other games. People that mention Everquest or Lineage or any other game as some badge of honor are excusing flaws by association.

Judge the game on its own shortcomings or triumphs, not based on every other game you've played up until now.

Sleeky101 · Jun 09, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooshang

to those that think there is grind, what should be done to deal with it?

The ability to unlock runes when they are used is a good start. Unlocking upgrade parts when you cutomize the weapon would be gravy.

Aug · Jun 09, 2005, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooshang

to those that think there is grind, what should be done to deal with it?

Provide all runes, skills and elites for your class combo after completing the game. There's no grind there. You complete the missions with your chosen combo, and you're given free reign over all skill/rune/equipment combinations with those 2 professions.

Right now, you have to partake in quite a bit of grinding (killing the same mobs over and over) to acquire all runes, skills, and elites for both of your professions. Both to get XP, and to try to get lucky and get the drops you need.

I'm actually closer to acquiring all the runes in the game versus all the skills for just my 2 classes, because of how slow skill point accumulation is.

Tuna · Jun 09, 2005, 07:47 PM // 19:47

You can fool yourself by saying you don't need runes to be competitive, but in reality, you do. If you have 13 in your primary line (air, axe, etc.) instead of 16, you're gimped, simple as that. The difference in the effectiveness of skills between 13 and 16 is huge; you get extra time on hexes and curses, more dmg from spells, and better bonuses on enchantments. The -75 health on superior runes is supposed to offset this, but the fact of the matter is unless you're going to be target a lot (monks) you don't need tons of life.

There is a large difference between 'doing well' and 'doing good.' Casual people are typically fine with 'doing well,' but as soon as the need to be competitive arises, you need to unlock loads of things. To bad there is no way with or withour grinding to get your runes anymore.

You cannot compare Guild Wars to a MMORPG. People who play MMOs have been playing MMOs for a long time and will continue to play them for even longer. Everyone that plays a MMO is a MMO player, not everyone who plays Guild Wars is a MMO player. You cannot tell people who have never played a MMO in their life that this game has no grind relative to Lineage/Everquest/daoc/etc. because they have never played those games and have to wish to. If you come from any background other than MMOs grind is a foriegn, unheard of, and completely stupid idea.

-Tuna, Member of DrkH

Aug · Jun 09, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

[qoute]There is a large difference between 'doing well' and 'doing good.'[/quote]
QFA. And in more ways than just grammatical correctness!

You don't need ALL the runes in the game, but you do need all the ones for your primary profession.